The whole point of free speech is not to make ideas exempt from criticism but to expose them to it.

Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Calling Gordon Howie...

In the post below, Gordon Howie pops in, seemingly to defend Sarah Palin. But maybe not. Maybe he was just trying to change the subject. Well, can't say as I blame him for that.

Anyway, here's how the conversation went, and I thought Gordo might like to reply up front, like he usually does. If he answers, I'll post it here.


What makes me shudder are people who DON"T get all worked up over extreme Muslims (or "regular" Muslims who won't denounce their behavior), illegal immigrants, the deceptive mainstream media, and our current Vice President!


Gordo, surely you haven't sampled the "death panel" kool aid, have you?

Don't you think it's creepy how many lies are coming up around the health care issue?

What's that all about?

Is it real grassroots or just big corporate astroturf?


Anonymous said...

OK, wait a second.... Howie SHUDDERS when people DON'T get worked up about something? My understanding has always been that "worked up" is the opposite of "calm, rational and intelligent".

Getting worked up about people not getting worked up?

That's weird... and kinda scary.

Gordon Howie said...

I am sure there are lots of people who think I am scary. That's how I know I am "on message" :-)

Bill, I can tell you personally that the West River reaction to the health care proposal ARE grassroots. There is no corporate or right-wing anti-American conspiracy here. Just real people from every party who don't like what the DC polititians are doing.

As to defending Sarah, I don't think she really needs me. She seems to be pretty capable on her own.

Once again, we agree... truth is what we need on the healt care issue. Perhaps you can help me here:
Here is my information, perhaps you can verify it or refute it.....
page 22 mandates government audit of the books of all employers who self insure
page 30 sec 123 gov't committee decides what treatment/benefits you get
page 29 health care is rationed
page 42 "health choices commissioner" will choose your benefits, not you
page 50, sec 152 health care provided to ALL no US citizens, illegal or otherwise
page 167 lines 18-23 anyone not having "acceptable" health care will be taxed 2.5% of their income

There is a lot more, but maybe you can tell me what you think about these for starters..

Still smiling (and crazy) gh

Neal said...

Get real, Gordon. No matter what the bill says, you're not going to support the idea of universal health care.

Bill Fleming said...

I don't know what you're reading, Gordon. Do you have a source you can cite?

DragonFly said...

I read an article on CNN Money, entitled 5 freedoms you'd lose in health care reform.

It was based on the House bill and the one by Senator Edward Kennedy's health committee.

These two bills had similarities, but are probably different in other ways. I have no idea what the other three bills entail.

Until one bill is presented to the public, I don’t know why there is advocacy and a false sense of accuracy given by Obama and certain members of Congress of what the healthcare reform will be.

A final bill needs to be publicly released, and then the people will be able to clearly decide whether the reform is good or bad.

Taunia Adams said...

Gordon Howie, as a politician, likely has great health care coverage.

You think he's ever going to be forced to choose between food or medicine?

You think he's ever going to be forced to choose between bankruptcy, due to medical bills, or remaining ill?

Do you think he's going to have to face the idea of going to a health care provider, via the emergency room because it's the only place you can go as a necissity because of no insurance, and hope they don't give you that, "yeah, I know you're here with no insurance" look? And hell yes, it happens, don't say it doesn't. Names on request, provided they consent.

You think he's going to go to work ill because A) he can't afford to lose a day's work (because of his previous medical bills?) and/or B) he can't afford to go to the doctor anyway?

You think he's more worried about government intrusion into his own business (if he owns one w/ employees) than providing the same health care to his employees that politicians have?

You think he's worried about what the Sarah Palins, although nothing she's/they've said thus far has been based on anything factual?

You think he's more worried about the disruptions at a town hall meeting from people who are angry because of the unemployment rate, bad economy, and further impending doom, than to deal with healthcare, instead of being of being more worried about what it's going to do a business?

You think he's worried about re-election?

Gordon Howie said...

Well, Bill, now you see first hand one of the significant reasons the truth about the proposed health care reform is kept from being center stage...... These comments from others choose enstead to attack me by telling me to "get real"... isn't it real to present facts?

Thanks for your genuine response, Bill in the middle of the personal attacks and misrepresentations by other bloggers.. Here is the truth. None of these other bloggers have read the proposed bill. They don't know what is really in it. I have referred to page and section of the proposed bill. My hope would be that they go there and look for themselves. If the summary I have given you in innacurate I will gladly embrace a true and accurate explanation of the bill, line by line. That is how we will arrive at the truth. I would suggest you call your Senator or Representative (of either party) and ask them where you can go to find the proposed bill.. (you know, the one we have to pass quickly without a free, open and public debate) This will be a first step for many, on their way to find the truth. Then, read it and tell me if it says something different than I have suggested. Together, we can walk through the whole proposal that way and find the truth.

is one site I found where you can download the entire bill, HB 3200.

While you're at it check out page 425 lines 22-25 and page 426 lines 1-3 for the govt approved end of life resources.. oh, and look at page 427 lines 15-24 to see if you think it might contain govt mandates for orders for the end of life.... look at it for yourself and see if you get "worked up".. maybe you have to be near the end of your life before it would get you "worked up"

Let's stop being nasty...(not for you Bill, you are always smiling).
For some of the rest of you.....
I am not a polititian, I am a citizen Legislator (who pays for his own health care). If you want to find out what kind of a "polititian" I am, I would invite you to have a cup of coffee with me. You would discover that I am a patriotic citizen who has sacrificed to serve his State in the Legislature for 5 years. While you're at it, invite Bill to join us. Until you have done that, you do not know me, and you should keep your allegations and nasty remarks to yourself. I'll bet your mother told you that when you were a kid. Mine did. I have a real life outside of politics where I have to struggle just like you do to earn a living. And, no, I am not worried about my re-election. I am a very concerned tax paying citizen who has normal problems just like you. You may disagree with me.. your perfect right. But let's stop with the B.S. which does nothing to discover the truth. Why don't the rest of you join Bill and me on a genuine, non-partisan search for the truth??
I don't pretend to know about other town hall meetings in the country, but I do know something about the one being sponsored by Citizens for Liberty... We will have a respectful, civil debate and attempt to discover the truth and educate taxpayers with that truth.
Let's come together to learn what is really in this 1000+ page bill that no one seems to have read. We will find areas of disagreement, but you may discover some things that even get you "worked up"...
am I over my word limit, Bill??

Bob Newland said...

As far as I can tell, Gordon is correct in his analysis of the so-called health care package. However, he has shown himself to be less than willing to examine the facts in another realm of health care whereof I am barred by court order from discussing.

Neal said...

Gordon said,
"These comments from others choose enstead to attack me by telling me to 'get real'... isn't it real to present facts?"

Presenting facts is precisely what I did.

I know you -- not personally, but politically, based upon your record, party affiliation, and other factors -- well enough to know that under no set of facts will you support government-mandated and/or -run universal healthcare.

That's not an attack. It's a prediction, which would become a fact if you would respond to the allegation directly (I note that you didn't).

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If not, give us a break with the specific objections to line and page of one of several proposed healthcare reform bills. It's a red herring. It doesn't matter what the bill says -- as long as the basic concept is mandated universal care, you will oppose it.

Same with almost everyone else on your side of the debate.

This isn't an "attack" or a "misrepresentation." There's no "partisanism" involved. No one is being "nasty." There has been no breach of decorum. Toughen up.

This is about policy, not personality.

Taunia Adams said...

Not one word of my post was attacking, disresptful or full of shit, at all. They were honest, legitimate questions, the same ones I've been posing to others, on both sides.

Your response leaves a lot to be desired.

I'll happily answer my own questions, add your responses, and my rebuttal.

I've not been in the position to have to choose between food or medicine. I've seen others who have, who choose food first, then go to the doctor, who then file bankruptcy. The bankruptcies we file used to be mostly credit cards. Now they consist primarily of medical bills, for themselves and their children. Other than watching a child die, I can't think of a much more horrible and painful situation. There are true, legitimate options on the table, but gee, those employers whose books might be audited.....

We've had uninsured clients who have been so ill that they are forced to go to emergency rooms. Of course, if they're sick enough and can't make a longer trip, they will go to the nearest emergency room where they've been seen before. If they can handle a longer trip, they'll try to go to an emergency room a little further off. Anything to not have to admit no insurance and take the glares. Forget follow up care.

Of course they're going to work sick. Easy one. Of course, this doesn't make too many friends amongst the co-workers who are themselves logically concerned about their own health, and of course it adds to the sick one's own, pro-longed, sometimes life-threatening illness.

Business owners. Oh man. This one pisses me off most. If this is an excuse for no healthcare, because of an audit of business books, then the businesses worried about the audits really need to be more concerned about things other than healthcare.

As far as the Sarah Palins of the world paragraph, I'm sorry Mr. Howie, your angry transmittal towards me sounds right up there with Sarah Palin. The "You would discover that I am a patriotic citizen" line insinuates that the rest of us are not? Sarah Palin: "Democracy depends on you, and that is why our troops are willing to die for you. So how about, in honor of the American soldier, you quit making things up?" Btw, she quit as governor.

"I don't pretend to know about other town hall meetings in the country" - you haven't seen or heard anything about what is going on around you? "But let's stop with the B.S. which does nothing to discover the truth." On this, I fully agree. Hence, my honest questions, which weren't really answered.

Further, my husband and I pay $1,200 per month insurance premium for our family of 5, with a $2500 per person deductible, $25 copay and $10 for most medicine. Last year we paid $14,400.00 in insurance and none of us went to the doctor. THAT'S MORE THAN A HELLUVA LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS AREA MAKE IN A YEAR! Is there a problem here?

BF, you're more than welcome to take this post down if you so choose. Perhaps this isn't the best medium to be asking elected persons questions about something like healthcare.

Bill Fleming said...

Well, Taunia, until you can meet us at Tally's, it'll have to do.

Good posts all.

Gordon, what are your proposed fixes for the problems you see in HB3200. You do agree with Taunia that our Health Care system needs reform, I presume?

Or no?

i.e. are you advocating for the status quo? Or for an alternative solution to the bill you take issue with here?

If possible, I would prefer our conversation on this issue to be constructive as opposed to destructive mainly because I have a bias towards creativity and uniqueness.

And I've noticed there is very little original about all the variations of "no" I read on the other blogs.

Neal poses a pretty good challenge, I think.

If we're just here to tear each others' positions down, we might as well not have the conversation — since all we'll do is end up with less than we had when we started.

Kind of like the way SD Republicans do in their primaries (just kidding, just kidding...)

Les said...

Good post's all Bill? How about keepin it real here brother Bill? Neal is full of proverbial ***! No response with facts. Taunia conjures up Gordon's health insurance plans from the Wizard of Oz. Good questions Taunia? You did not answer one of Gordies questions, but chose to attack his person with your so called questions. Anyone here take a close look at the pay of a SD legislator lately? Also the great health insurance they are given by the state (NOT). Bob, when the time comes, get out from behind the med-marijuana push and work to get it legalized for all the right reasons (smoking it for entertainment not being one of them)! Tell me now Bill, why should Gordon answer your final questions with no one holding any posters accountable here?

Neal said...

If I'm full of shit, Les, I'd think Gordon would correct me. It would be very easy for him to do so. All he'd have to say is, Neal, you're wrong, I do support universal health care.

If I'm wrong about my prediction, I'll gladly apologize to Gordon.

But I'm not holding my breath.

Bill Fleming said...

Because, Les, he's my friend Gordon Howie, same reason I'm answering your somewhat testy question, Les. You realize that you are just as full of BS as anyone else here, don't you. If not, you need to.

Neal said...

And, pray tell, where are your "facts," Les, in support of your allegation that I am full of shit?

DragonFly said...

Due to the color of my eyes, I've been told I’m full of it...Neal & Les, if you have brown eyes, then maybe, you're full of it too? ;)

(A bad joke to lighten the mood)

Les said...

My eyes are brown Dragon. I really appreciate what you bring to the forum! I am sorry Neal, I know you -- not personally, but politically, based upon your blog posting, party affiliation, and other factors -- well enough to know that under no set of facts will you support Gordon Howie what ever he says, and that in itself does not make you full of proverbial ***! Neal you hit Gordie with your knowledge of who you think he is rather than answering his questions from the potential legislation, why should he support it if he has questions that have not been answered. He also asked the first question. Are you too good to stoop to answer Gordons questions? Gordie appears to not agree with my thoughts on legalizing marijuana, so should I talk to him like you, Taunia and Bob do to try to convince him I am right? Gordie asked the same questions I want to see answered, I have yet to find anyone who will put an answer to those questions. Why is wanting an answer BS Bill? I do not deny I have all the same reason to be full of sh*t that anyone else may have and I hope I am not squelching discussion. Are we here to make a difference, or is this just purely entertainment? Bill I would question how long Gordon will call you a friend on the forum if you don't bring back the Decorum as you did when I burnt the toast!

Bill Fleming said...

Les, have you been reading the post above?

The conversation is progressing nicely. My observation is that you seem to be the only one having a problem with the discourse here.

We have to argue this out.

Conflict is not reflective of a lack of decorum.

It is the way in which we conduct ourselves as we go about our arguments that makes a difference.

I don't require Neal to answer Gordon's questions if he doesn't want to answer them any more than I'm going to require Gordon to answer Bob's, or yours.

But when one of you starts to say the other one is full of shit — even if you don't spell it out — you've put your foot on a line that I'm going to be real picky about letting you cross, depending on how your remark is fielded.

Hence, my comment back to you.

You were the first to throw down here, Les.

Do you understand that?

You took a shot at me as a moderator, and Neal as a poster. We've both responded in kind.

Now, you can either laugh it off and get over it, or you can get all crabby. Your call.

My hope would be that you let it go and move up to the post above.

I'm thinking of shutting off comments on this thread anyway.

It served its purpose as a catalyst by generating the next step in our discussion process.

Anyway, thanks for listening Less, and for your concern about things Forumpian.

Now, can we move on?

Neal said...

Les said,
"Neal, I know you -- not personally, but politically, based upon your blog posting, party affiliation, and other factors -- well enough to know that under no set of facts will you support Gordon Howie what ever he says."

You're wrong, in almost every way possible.

I've never revealed my party affiliation, or lack thereof. That you think I have says something -- about you.

I'll agree with Gordon on any issue I happen to agree with Gordon on. As a matter of fact, I may agree with his position on healthcare. Like my party affiliation, I've never said anything about how I feel on the issue. That you think I have says something -- about you.

"Neal you hit Gordie with your knowledge of who you think he is..."

You did the same thing. The difference between you and me is, I was right.

You have accused me of being full of shit, and you haven't provided a single fact to support it. Just the opposite, the prediction I made in this thread was TRUE -- so I demonstrably am NOT full of shit.

And I'm the one who's lacking in decorum?

"He also asked the first question. Are you too good to stoop to answer Gordons questions?"

His questions are a red herring. Gordon does not support universal healthcare in principle -- to his credit, he candidly admits this -- so his questions about the details of a universal healthcare bill are meaningless.

There can be no satisfactory answer to questions about details when he disagrees with the concept in the first place.

WHICH IS ALL FINE. He's entitled to his opinion.

I'm also entitled to tell him to get real about it.

You too, Les. Quit pretending like if only these minor kinks could be worked out, you'd be on board with healthcare reform. You wouldn't.

Bill Fleming said...

P.S. Les, you can have the last word on this thread.


Les said...

I am not a person that likes the last word Bill, but not taking it here would be like running from the medicine. I am disgusted with myself for letting my language slide on Neal, as a desired respect for others was the catalyst for my words to him. Without respect, we will never look into another's world deeply enough to validate them. Outside of this I will let the readers judge. G/nite Bill!