I watched in horror with the rest of the world as the World Trade Center Towers went up in flames and came crashing down. In the weeks following, I swore allegiance to my Republican president trusting him to do the right thing.
Surely, when our nation is in crisis, I reasoned, we can set aside our cynical, partisan, power- mad ways and unite as one.
We didn't, and we haven't.
So I'm not celebrating 911 with those who have somehow found a way to puff ourselves up with pride on this day while at the same time ignoring the crises that divide our nation, and fueling the the fires of internal discontent for profit and partisan power motives.
Instead, I appeal once again to those who would divide us to put an end to the fear mongering madness and go back to being good neighbors and real Americans. It won't happen if we don't just do it, people.
And with that, I'm taking the day off as far as the Forum is concerned. I'll be back tomorrow.
Carry on. Love is coming.
31 comments:
So is Bill feeling quilty about hating the Bible, the Declaration, and the Constitution? Is he ready to give up on the Progressive Movement and become a true American?
Have you changed since 9/11/09, Sibson?
er, 9/11/01
Steve you make my ass tired. You really don't get it. People who disagree with you can be Americans too. America is not your private club and you and other religious zealots are not in charge of deciding who is American and who is not.
I know Bill Fleming for many years. He does not hate the Bible, the DOI or the Constitution.
The Progressive Movement is no less American than the Religious Right Movement.
I continue to be stunned by your obtuse view of America. The whole POINT of America is that people of differing views can live together and pursue their happiness.
Jesus did not gain followers by telling them they weren't welcome. When did you ever see him depicted as pushing people away? Where in the Bible is Jesus depicted as being intolerant of others?
That is exactly what your attitude does. You are SO self-rightious that you do your own cause great harm.
You are welcome to post here, Steve. But when you start trying to make us believe that people of differing views can't be "true" Americans, I'm going to tell you to kiss my tired ass.
Steve,
I'm also stunned by your completely obtuse interpretation of the Bible. Where do you guys GET this stuff? Honestly, have you actually READ the Bible? I have. And I do every day. There's very little in it to support what you declare on your own blog and here. The Bible was not meant to be cherry-picked to advance weird – sometimes crazy – agendas.
If you don't understand the Bible, I suggest you start taking Bible study from a different pastor.
Well said, MS.
Well done, Michael. Reminds of Gandhi - he liked our Christ but not our Christians. They aren't much like our Christ.
Michael,
Where is the Bible does Jesus say to those who refused to follow Him "to kiss my tired ass".
Would you follow the advice of one who preached in that manner?
Are you proud that you inspired an intolerant anti-Christian comment?
Sibson, with your hellfire and brimstone railing, if you were minister/preacher/leader of a church, how many parishioners would you have?
Anyone, anyone?
Taunia,
I found this from a Erik Rush column that explains the problem I am having reaching a civil discussion with your, Fleming, and Sanborn:
"The irrationality of progressives' doctrine also precludes beneficial argument or debate. When another's principles are based upon fallacy and devoid of reason, when logic is convoluted and infinitely mutable, and all rhetorical and perceptual roads lead to a foregone, preferential conclusion, it is folly to engage that individual. In such cases, the flawed pretext of granting our errant fellows their fair and evenhanded due is recklessness.
While individuals in accord with my thinking might enjoy what I articulate, and the open-minded may gain clarity from it, nothing I nor anyone else asserts is going to sway the dedicated progressives, socialists and Marxists against whom our nation now struggles. That sort of fundamental transformation of mind can only have its genesis in trauma or revelatory experience of a magnitude beyond human design, such as that which occasionally reforms a lifelong criminal or substance abuser. The core beliefs of these individuals are so deeply irrational and their devotion to same so perverse that it is difficult not to ascribe them to either psychological pathology or demonic influence."
Michael,
This also explains why your Decorum Forum experiment failed. When it comes to fundamental differences of principles and worldview, compromise is impossible. That is because one is wrong and one is right. There is no middle ground.
Sad, but true. Just try to not take it out on the messenger.
Look, Steve,
You are missing the point again. You bring on the vitriol yourself.
You cannot seem to separate religion and government. You cannot seem to separate that those who do not believe exactly as you do can be both Christians and Americans.
Many many non-Christians have given their lives so that you can have the freedom to be a Christian American.
You cross the line for decorum here when you tell people whom I know to be extremely patriotic; who love this country and with whom you and I sometimes disagree, that they are not "true" Americans.
You are flat wrong, Mr. Sibson. And, your post was designed to incite a response, which it did.
Steve,
I've changed only two words from Rush's column and it makes as much sense to me now as Rush's version does to you.
The irrationality of the religious right's doctrine also precludes beneficial argument or debate. When another's principles are based upon fallacy and devoid of reason, when logic is convoluted and infinitely mutable, and all rhetorical and perceptual roads lead to a foregone, preferential conclusion, it is folly to engage that individual."
Here's the problem, Steve: You don't get to decide what others believe. It is up to God's grace what happens to them when they die, not you.
And it is not up to you to decide who is American. We are ALL God's children, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, and all the others who believe, and I believe, those who don't believe are God's children too. And, the thing we cannot seem to get through to you is that all those others can be American too.
The reason this democracy (representative republic) works is because we all have a voice.
The election of Barack Obama; health care reform; the stimulus package may change the world as we know it. They won't end the world as we know it. They won't end the republic. And they won't end your ability to express dissent in America, or your right to be a Christian.
So, how dare you tell people of differing views that you are more American than they. It doesn't work that way, Steve.
Interesting that Steve thinks the Decorum Forum experiment failed. It's the only SD political blog besides his own that he seems to feel comfortable posting on at length. And we are the only group willing to put up with him as well.
In short, even Sibson has found a place to set up his soapbox here.
I'd call that pretty successful community building, Michael. Nice work.
p.s. Steve, please remember not to blame us when you make a fool of yourself here. All we can do is provide the garden patch. You're the one who has to weed it.
Thanks Bill,
And, the three of us posting here has shown itself to be a success. I check the stats daily and we're plugging right along at a better than respectable clip.
It won't be all that long and we'll be able to make some claims of our own.
And, the politicians are watching us, which I hope is good and I hope they're taking notes.
Michael,
You and Fleming don't answer my nonreligious questions and instead personally attack me. You don't get it. The principles this country was founded on come from the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Bible. I will not compromise those principles, nor will I allow my First AMendment right of freedom of religious expression to be violated by those like you who say I have to separate religion from government. Natural Law requires those to be in harmony.
"They won't end the republic."
It has already been ended by teh Progressive Movement. Can we restore it?
"Steve, please remember not to blame us when you make a fool of yourself here."
Michael,
See what I mean by personal attack. And your position that I simple deserve it is intolerance toward those who who disagree with.
I am not deciding who can or cna't be an American or a Christian. All I am doing is expressing the principles that Americans and Christians should follow. When one rejects fundamental American principles, and works to destroy them, that is anti-American. Such is the case of those in the Progressive Movement.
Can you reject God, and still be a follower of Jesus Christ?
"I've changed only two words from Rush's column and it makes as much sense to me now as Rush's version does to you."
The fact remains, one of us is right and one of us is wrong. Both can't be right. There can be no compromise. There is black and white, and there is good and evil. Either there is God or there is no God. Can't be both.
"It's the only SD political blog besides his own that he seems to feel comfortable posting on at length."
Bill,
"You Lie!!" I post at the Madville Times. In fact you made a false accusation regarding one of my comments last week.
Really? Which comment was that, Sib?
p.s. So, Sibby, explain something to us. Why is it that the thuggish mob rule strategy currently being implemented by the goofball Teabaggers — wherein they try to shout down our elected representatives and make noises about seceding from the Union — doesn't feel like people advocating for a "Republic" to me?
And why is it you take all your cues from corporate media clowns like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh? Nobody ever elected them.
In a Republic, we elect people and let them do their job. If they do it poorly, we don't vote for them in the next election. That's the orderly process, for which you presumably advocate, Steve. In fact, I've heard you argue that position for years. Why now have you suddenly changed your tune? Just because your side lost this time?
By the way, Sibby, when I point out that you are making a fool of yourself, it's not necessary for you to think of it as a personal attack.
You wouldn't think of it as a personal attack if I told you, that your fly was open (and it was), or that you had some spinach stuck between your teeth (and you did), would you?
So trust me on this Stevie. You routinely make a fool of yourself.
I'm not asking you to stop. I'm just giving you some options.
You can continue, and we'll keep laughing, or you can reexamine your approach, and perhaps come back with a somewhat less ludicrous demeanor.
Think of the Forum as a jury of your peers. You don't get to decide whether or not this group thinks you're an idiot. We do.
Steve said,
"Either there is God or there is no God. Can't be both."
Perhaps, but where you run intellectually (and spiritually) astray is when you suggest that the only true conception of God is your own.
To me, the question isn't whether God is or isn't, it is rather what do we mean when we ask the God question.
Or as one philosopher put it: "Obviously, the truth is what's so. Not so obviously it's also "so what?"
Neal,
Show me when I did that. What I am against are those who say we can't talk about our conception of God at all. So what about right and wrong? Do you believe there is?
Bill,
In case you don't know, the Constitutional Republic has been taken over by Progressives. So issue your complaints to them.
And Michael,
Fleming just proved the point Erik Rush made. That and the one where Progressives accuse others what they themselves are guilty of.
Gotta love Sibby.
He staggers in, bounces off the walls a couple of times, mumbles something incomprehensible, grabs a handful of potato chips, and splits.
Like a scene out of Cuckoo's Nest.
Bill,
You still haven't answered the first comment. But it does look like you forgot to come back with love.
I don't answer questions like that Steve. They aren't really questions. They're accusations disguised as questions. Very dishonest behavior. Makes people not want to trust you.
Sibby asked me to "Show me when I did that."
Ok.
Your words, from just this thread alone:
"When it comes to fundamental differences of principles and worldview, compromise is impossible. That is because one is wrong and one is right."
"The fact remains, one of us is right and one of us is wrong. Both can't be right. There can be no compromise."
It doesn't seem your style to dodge like that, Steve. Surely you don't think that anyone other than a Christian (of your particular stripe) is right about God, do you?
Steve:
"The fact remains, one of us is right and one of us is wrong. Both can't be right. There can be no compromise."
We are just going to disagree.
"I will not compromise those principles, nor will I allow my First Amendment right of freedom of religious expression to be violated by those like you who say I have to separate religion from government."
You are here. Your voice is here. Your voice is on your own blog as well as others. Who is violating your freedom to express your religious views?
Bad news, Sibby: If the First Amendment doesn't protect Bill Fleming's right to freedom of speech and religion, it doesn't protect yours either. When you declare that Fleming is not a true American because he doesn't agree with your profoundly narrow (and I believe, wrong) interpretation of the Declaration, the Constitution and the Bible, you're driving down a slippery road without a steering wheel and your pedal to the metal.
Let's say you are a member of The Bob Fischer Church of Jesus Christ and Free Interest Until 2012; If Paid By 2012:
Just as Jesus did not say: "Take, eat; This is my body, except for you guys in one of those other churches" neither did the founders declare that We The People were free to worship as they see fit, except for guys like that Bill Fleming fellow.
It's black and white. And you are wrong. The fact that Fleming disagrees with you does not make him evil. It makes him an American who disagrees with you.
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